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Matrix Discussion - Metalogic - 08-11-2010
So, while we're either working on the EMU, or simply waiting for the EMU, let is delve into The Matrix Universe. On this thread, I will post a topic for discussion, and when one discussion either runs out or comes to a conclusion, I will post another topic to discuss. All the topics center around The Matrix Universe.
If you have an idea for a topic we can discuss, you can PM me on here or the other two forums. Now onto the first topic!
In the video above, which is The Architect's Speech in Reloaded, The Architect says that there are levels of survival that the machines are prepared to accept. If you want the quote and skip the speech, then just go to 5:50 on the video.
Did the machines have a level of survival that didn't rely on humans, or was it a bluff by The Architect to get Neo to choose ?
It has been hinted in the original Matrix film, as well as MxO that there is a form of fission (or was it fusion?) that's combined with the power that the humans output that gives them their power. I could see them scaling back quite a bit to be able to rely solely on fission or fusion power. Or they'd just build more fusion power plants.
Let the Discussion begin!
RE: Matrix Discussion - HD_Morpheus - 08-11-2010
of course.
but i propose another question... why not use geothermal energy, which is "infinite", free of cost and diggable by machines (remember the diggers to attack Zion).
they want the people as multi cores to process, not energy. you know.. normal 10% usage of brain and so.. leaves up to 90% unused.
and who still thinks that after ~100 years since 1999 machines didnt evolve in their methods of using human brains & new powersources?
RE: Matrix Discussion - QuiDormit - 08-11-2010
I'm going to rehash something I've said many times before, but try to look at it in a different light.
To answer the question, we have to have more information. For starters, why are the Machines using humans for power? It's ridiculous to think that humans were the best option.
Typically, I've said that the Machines have enslaved humans in order to protect humans, but now I think it goes beyond that. I think that they're also using the humans brains. Not just for processing power, but because humans can "think outside of the box" more than machines.
That makes it easy. If all of the humans were dead, the Machines could easily move on to another power source. However, they would miss their unpredictable human minds.
RE: Matrix Discussion - Metalogic - 08-11-2010
(08-11-2010, 09:45 AM)HD_Morpheus Wrote: of course.
but i propose another question... why not use geothermal energy, which is "infinite", free of cost and diggable by machines (remember the diggers to attack Zion).
they want the people as multi cores to process, not energy. you know.. normal 10% usage of brain and so.. leaves up to 90% unused.
and who still thinks that after ~100 years since 1999 machines didnt evolve in their methods of using human brains & new powersources?
Well we don't know exactly what kind of power the machines uses. All we know is what we heard from Morpheus in The Matrix and what The Merovingian uncovered in MxO. What we know is that the machines uses Nuclear fusion for power.
Also it has been far longer than 100 years, remember The Matrix is set somewhere in the late 20th to early 21st century, before the invention of AI. This is what I hated about MxO, was the stupid "It's always 1999" crap. If you watch The Matrix you'll notice that the date when Cypher made that call to Trinity, the year was 1998. The movies never gave a specific year, or date, and neither should've MxO. It was one of those non-questions that didn't need an answer.
(08-11-2010, 02:51 PM)QuiDormit Wrote: I'm going to rehash something I've said many times before, but try to look at it in a different light.
To answer the question, we have to have more information. For starters, why are the Machines using humans for power? It's ridiculous to think that humans were the best option.
Typically, I've said that the Machines have enslaved humans in order to protect humans, but now I think it goes beyond that. I think that they're also using the humans brains. Not just for processing power, but because humans can "think outside of the box" more than machines.
That makes it easy. If all of the humans were dead, the Machines could easily move on to another power source. However, they would miss their unpredictable human minds.
I'd agree and I think in MxO The Merovingian found out that the humans were a very inefficient source of energy, they hardly generated enough BTUs to power the machines society. So like you said, the question then becomes, what did they use the humans for?
Through the entire series, from Matrix to Revolutions, the theme has always been about "hope". The Architect said it is one of our greatest strength and greatest weakness. He couldn't figure out what hope was all about, there wasn't a mathematical value for "hope". If The Matrix is indeed made up of equations that need to be balanced, then "Hope" is one big friggin X.
I remember back in MxO, during The Oligarch storyline the machines were very primitive, and actually relied heavily on The Oligarchs to advance themselves. The machines need humans basically because we're abstract thinkers. Machines are binary thinker, and they always will be. In The Matrix, they can study us, they can observe us and try to figure out a way to think like we do.
I think the line about "Humans are power" was put in there by The machines every time they rebuild Zion, as a way to facilitate the cycle of The One. It seems that every "One" before Neo realize the symbiotic relationships between humans and machines, and thus decided to return to the source. We need them, they need us.
RE: Matrix Discussion - QuiDormit - 08-11-2010
Right, you said what I was thinking far more succinctly.
Also, I was thinking that the closest thing that the machines have to a wild-card thinker is the Oracle.
Hence her feelings of closeness with humans.
RE: Matrix Discussion - Metalogic - 08-11-2010
(08-11-2010, 03:21 PM)QuiDormit Wrote: Right, you said what I was thinking far more succinctly.
Also, I was thinking that the closest thing that the machines have to a wild-card thinker is the Oracle.
Hence her feelings of closeness with humans.
I really wish the MxO people delved into The Oracle alittle bit better. My character Metalogic may have hated her, but as a person I always found her fascinating. I mean this is a program that's somehow caught between the Machine world and the Exile world. She's not exactly a machine program, but she's not an exile either. There's something about her programming that allows her to do more than just facilitate the cycle of The One.
We have seen Exiles evolve, they go from machine programs to exiles, being able to express human emotions and desires. I believe that since The Oracle does reside in The Matrix instead of the Source, that some of that evolution has rubbed off on her over time. So she is able to straddle that line.
They really should've done more with The Oracle and Seraph.
RE: Matrix Discussion - Phrack - 08-11-2010
I can't begin to question the machine power issue, it's too early for me to try and wrap my head around. But regarding geothermal energy, I was always under the impression that this was the source of Zion's power. I mean, they recharge their ships, run their city, and they have to draw this energy from somewhere, right? The fact that they did, after mankind had supposedly waged war against certain power sources, raised a question that never got asked in the movies.
RE: Matrix Discussion - QuiDormit - 08-11-2010
(08-11-2010, 03:26 PM)Phrack Wrote: I can't begin to question the machine power issue, it's too early for me to try and wrap my head around. But regarding geothermal energy, I was always under the impression that this was the source of Zion's power. I mean, they recharge their ships, run their city, and they have to draw this energy from somewhere, right? The fact that they did, after mankind had supposedly waged war against certain power sources, raised a question that never got asked in the movies.
You make a fantastic point.
But geothermal makes the most sense for the humans. Afterall, they are already located "deep underground, where it's still warm."
Makes sense to me.
RE: Matrix Discussion - Metalogic - 08-11-2010
(08-11-2010, 03:26 PM)Phrack Wrote: I can't begin to question the machine power issue, it's too early for me to try and wrap my head around. But regarding geothermal energy, I was always under the impression that this was the source of Zion's power. I mean, they recharge their ships, run their city, and they have to draw this energy from somewhere, right? The fact that they did, after mankind had supposedly waged war against certain power sources, raised a question that never got asked in the movies.
Yea, I can see the humans using geothermal. They're closer to the earth core where it's still warm. Now whether or not machine uses geothermal, I doubt it. I'm going solely what's been said in the movies and MxO.
RE: Matrix Discussion - HD_Morpheus - 08-11-2010
well, i just say from a scientific view. geothermal doesnt require you to feed the earth, and humans do have feeding needs, even without movement.
a bigger question would be "why the need to think out of the box?". as you can read on articles, the real AI is not only being self-aware, but able to emulate the human mind and learn by it own ways (semiout of the box).
So machines (with AI) can just do the same way we do. also, with an unlimited (well big numbers) of brains to open (no ethic being machine), you could reverse the phisical brain functions fully. no soul but can get anything doable. And indeed, they can keep track of known results and differences bettern than we do. A simple programming algorithm could show you how to stimulate neurons from a basic one to the full pack and getting all the possibilities. If you add big number of specimens to examine, plus concurrent machines doing it... wont take much longer.
So given the amount of years passed (from 199x, or 20th century, whatever), they just keep them for some reason, but learning... meh.
i see one reason: the objective. machines/sofware had the original parameters and no humans means no fighting/serving/observing = no objective. so if there's no objective, the machines have no purpose, hence they would stop "living". so we are just like a zoo
.