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+--- Thread: Question in regards to Loyalty... (/showthread.php?tid=339)
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Vesuveus - 18-02-2010
(18-02-2010, 03:44 AM)Barloke Wrote: I always thought that Morpheus started to "lose it" was when Neo gave him the heads up about the prophecy just BEFORE his ship got blown to pieces. Before all that it was ok to take chances and pull some crazy stunts case it was "all about the prophecy man..." Then after the "Neb" takes a permanent residence he started to act a little more humbled (that's the way I saw it at least). He didn't question Neo's decision to take off and take Trinity (although we could say to his defense he was just still keeping the faith). But afterwards being the first guy to check and see if the Sentinels were really powered down (or resting?) was a little nuts since no one really knew what the hell was going on in the Matrix until after the Sentinels took off.
Then there was the first scene in MXO where he was talking with the Oracle and he's carrying on about the Machines not giving back Neo's dead body. Ok not exactly the friendliest move by the Mechs but damn Morphy! Now he is gonna start code bombing in the hopes of force awakening (and most likely killing) blue pills?
I think before the code bombings the Zion command thought he was a risk taker and sometimes insubourdinate, after the bombings he just became reckless and dangerous.
I see the change in Morpheus beginning with MxO as you explained. I didn't see it in Revolutions even though he uttered those powerful words "... and now that dream is gone from me". I think he just went from a True Believer of the Prophecy to a True Believer in Neo. Kind of like Niobe; "You never believed in the prophecy" "No, but I believe in him". (Even though we know now that Niobe did believe in the prophecy.)
This is one of the things I didn't like about the MxO storyline. It was a bitter pill I swallowed to immerse in the storyline.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Rxu - 18-02-2010
Morpheus did what he believed was correct. No one has to agree with him. But since the first movie you could tell that he was an outsider from the rest of zion, particularly within the fleets captains'. We know for a fact that he purposely redpilled the majority of his crew in hopes that each time he would discover "The One", an act that might seem irresponsible to some. Then when he finally runs into Neo he strikes gold, and to a certain extent ends the war between man and machines...at least in a physical level.
In MXO you could have easily predicted that Morpheus was going to become zion's unwanted step child, lets face it he was the type of guy to sit around and take shit from anyone...that was zion command's job.
So he jumped ship literally and started his attempts at de-stabilizing the simulation, until he had an unfortunate run-in with a piece of garbage.
Is he dead? I'm not sure, and personally I'd like to think not.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - QuiDormit - 18-02-2010
(18-02-2010, 02:37 PM)Rxu Wrote: So he jumped ship literally and started his attempts at de-stabilizing the simulation, until he had an unfortunate run-in with a piece of garbage.
Exactly. Don't forget, to Morpheus, "ending the war" meant "no more Matrix."
That's the part that everyone seems to forget. Morpheus wants a world without the Machines. Radical action worked for him again and again in the past (I mean come on... busting up to the Merv's hangout TWICE and barking orders? That's nuts.).
So why not take radical action again?
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Rxu - 19-02-2010
(18-02-2010, 02:48 PM)QuiDormit Wrote: Exactly. Don't forget, to Morpheus, "ending the war" meant "no more Matrix."
The Matrix is the ultimate form of control...It basically defines our mental slavery. To end the simulation meant freedom for generations to come and a chance at us humans rebuilding our civilization and one day crawl out of our caves.
Sure some people would die but that is the collateral damage of any war, besides how many haven't the machines sacrificed.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Vesuveus - 19-02-2010
One thing I sometimes have trouble getting over is that Morpheus, Neo, trinity and the other members of the Neb were the "hereos" and they killed innocent people.
I don't particularly believe that every guard, swat and policeman is a machine program. I just always thought that since an Agent can possess them, then they are human. I suppose and Agent could possess a lesser program that was connected to the Matrix, rather than an exile. But that is another topic.
The lobby scene sticks out. All those people just doing their jobs, They believed they were fighting terrorists who invaded their gov't building. And Neo and Trinity killed them. Why? If you are not one of us (extracted) you are one of them. Anyone still connected to the Matrix is potentially an Agent. Some minds are not ready to be freed. They are dependent on the Matrix and will fight to protect it.
So it is really a case of only the strong survive.
So if Morpheus is willing to kill coppertops one at a time, then maybe he really was willing to kill them all at once. The same cause and motive applies.
Code bombs: What did they actually do? My understanding is that they showed the code of the Matrix and those that were not ready would die of shock. Those that were ready would; I dunno. Self-substantiate? But they would drown, right? That's not according to Morpheus' plan (as I see it, explained above).
So this thread had provoked some thoughts. My old stance is that Morpheus had in fact gone crazy and if he were to come back I may not support him.
(RP wise I would have loved to go on bombing sprees with the LET Morpheus, but I would actually have been conflicted as the person sitting at the computer)
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Barloke - 19-02-2010
I had similar misgivings (and still do) as well concerning the whole code bomb thing. For me it was at best a hypocitical act. Lets say for the sake of argument you had a million blue pills (I could see more than that number in Mega City but bear with me). Throw in another million in Machine programs and exiles (by Machines I mean those programs in Machine City).
If the plan Morpheus had would have worked he could have easily destroyed 800,000 human lives if the reality of the Matrix would have collapsed around them (remember, Morpheus did say something to the effect that awakening wasn't for everybody, that the mind has trouble letting go.
Now I know this is the part where back in the day I used to here from the Zion camp that the Mechs and Exiles didn't count because they're not human and since Zion was a t war anyway with them they would happily like to see them all dead. I guess that includes The Oracle, Seraph and Sati as well because despite their help and good intentions the only thanks they were going to get from Morpheus was deletion. I'm not going to get into the validitiy of their sentinence because we'll be here all night but suffice it say it would have been a real shitty "thanx" from Morpheus if he would have pulled the plug.
Ok but let's get back to the 200,000 (and this is the kind estimate) survivors. One moment some poor slob is eating a chilli dog and the next thing he remembers is the world coming apart and then he wakes up in some cocoon. Ok let's say he DOESN'T drown, DOESN'T have etrophy of the muscles and can see perfectly. He's dead in a week anyway. No food , no water , the Real is a wasteland and damn sure no hovercraft is gonna pick his ass up because Zion wouldn't have the resources to locate all these survivors. The kind estimate? I think its safe to say that thanks to Morpheus we would be looking at hopefully 700-1000 survivors (and Zion sure isn't gonna send a "thank you" note anytime soon to ol' Morphy for this). That many could theoretically survive out of a million people ( and we all know there was a hell of alot more people in Mega City) .
So yes I did have a problem with the code bombing thing because I always thought that the point was to save as many humans as you can, not massacre them to prove a point.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Vesuveus - 19-02-2010
the only thing I see wrong with this is the math. Redpills represent 1% of the population. Maybe less. So 1% of 1,000,000 would be 10,000.
10,000 survivors would possibly awake and starve to death in a week. I think Zion would get less than 700 back to the caves, too.
Then there is always civil war to worry about.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Barloke - 19-02-2010
Ah you're right so instead of 200,000 survivors there would only be 10,000.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - QuiDormit - 19-02-2010
Well, when Neoteny and I were running our codebomb arc, we always said that the humans that were born into the machines were less than human and that the codebombing campaign wasn't about them. It was about the freeborns.
Yes, I realize that you need unplugged humans in order to create freeborns, but I always said (IC, that is) it would be better to put our energy toward the end of the tyranny of machines and toward making babies with the people we have than to expend the immense amounts of energy that goes into freeing, rebuilding, teaching, etc etc each and every redpill. Also, every freed redpill was a potential Cypher.
I dunno, I mean, IRL, I would be disgusted by the act, but in the make-believe world, I see where it could potentially have its merits.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Barloke - 19-02-2010
"it would be better to put our energy toward the end of the tyranny of machines and toward making babies with the people we have than to expend the immense amounts of energy that goes into freeing, rebuilding, teaching, etc etc each and every redpill." - QuiDormit
Aha so the great Zion plan comes to light! Kill the Matrix and have a mass orgy afterwards! Well now it all makes sense to me! lol (j/k)