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+--- Thread: Question in regards to Loyalty... (/showthread.php?tid=339)
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Rxu - 19-02-2010
[quote='QuiDormit' pid='7145' dateline='1266595084'
Yes, I realize that you need unplugged humans in order to create freeborns, but I always said (IC, that is) it would be better to put our energy toward the end of the tyranny of machines and toward making babies with the people we have than to expend the immense amounts of energy that goes into freeing, rebuilding, teaching, etc etc each and every redpill. Also, every freed redpill was a potential Cypher.
I dunno, I mean, IRL, I would be disgusted by the act, but in the make-believe world, I see where it could potentially have its merits.
[/quote]
Best damn summery of what was going on in Morpheus' mind all those years as he searched for the one.
I am not an evolutionist, but this massive "unplug" and eventual death of thousands if not millions....Is simply Natural Selection
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - QuiDormit - 19-02-2010
(19-02-2010, 05:25 PM)Barloke Wrote: Aha so the great Zion plan comes to light! Kill the Matrix and have a mass orgy afterwards! Well now it all makes sense to me! lol (j/k)
What's wrong with a bunch of people rutting away like monkeys in the depths of a dirty cave?
(19-02-2010, 06:51 PM)Rxu Wrote: I am not an evolutionist, but this massive "unplug" and eventual death of thousands if not millions....Is simply Natural Selection
And to take that just a tiny bit further, you figure the Machines were deciding who lives and who dies, thereby creating unnatural selection. Wiping out all the humans like that would give us a nice clean fresh start in the eyes of mother nature.
/not advocating it though IRL
//Qui just planted 1000 code bombs. GO!
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Rxu - 19-02-2010
The problem is choice...
Those who defend the toasters, can argue the fact that they are helping us "live" in an otherwise ruined planet, and all they ask from us is some energy and the right to jack in/out of our bodies when their gatekeeper programs (agents) feel the need.
And let us not forget how they nearly wiped humanity. If they truly wanted to help they would have rebuilt TRW, instead of creating the Matrix.
Humanities hope lies in those who are willing to accept the reality of the world they live in and fight back when necessary, this applies within the Matrix and in our very own Real World.
Take Zion as an example, for the most part, is riddled with hippies, you watched the films as well as i did, and hippies don't like wars. In fact they are willing to forget any and all past suffering in order to avoid a single shot being fired but is that the solution?
Of course not....swift and decisive actions win wars and end suffering.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Agent Pace - 19-02-2010
(19-02-2010, 08:24 PM)Rxu Wrote: And let us not forget how they nearly wiped humanity. If they truly wanted to help they would have rebuilt TRW, instead of creating the Matrix.
Well, maybe that is their long-term goal. Thing is, machines need energy to function, like everything. Since humans took the sun away, the need to find a new energy source - and keeping it under control - came way before rebuilding the world on their to-do list.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - rajkosto - 19-02-2010
MASSIVE CAVE ORGY WOOO WOOO
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - QuiDormit - 19-02-2010
(19-02-2010, 08:36 PM)Agent Pace Wrote: Well, maybe that is their long-term goal. Thing is, machines need energy to function, like everything. Since humans took the sun away, the need to find a new energy source - and keeping it under control - came way before rebuilding the world on their to-do list.
I don't think so. First of all, I don't think that humans would be worth the effort to use as a main power source. I think that they likely use humans as a cluster (as has been stated before), and on some level, energy. Also, I think that Machines keep humans around to tap into their brains. Human thought is complex and can be very improvisational, which I would think would be useful.
I still see the Matrix as more of an iRobot situation than a Terminator situation, where the Machines imprisoned the humans within their own minds to protect them from themselves. Humans are the Machines' creators, and on some level I'd imagine they revere them, however they also have seen the hateful side of humans directed at them.
If this isn't the case, then someone explain to me why they bother keeping humans conscious at all? Why not just induce a vegetative state where their bodies still produce the energy?
No, there's something very specific about keeping them conscious and "living in a dream world." Once again, why would the Architect bother to make a perfect human world for the very first iteration of the Matrix?
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Rxu - 19-02-2010
(19-02-2010, 08:41 PM)QuiDormit Wrote: If this isn't the case, then someone explain to me why they bother keeping humans conscious at all? Why not just induce a vegetative state where their bodies still produce the energy?
No, there's something very specific about keeping them conscious and "living in a dream world." Once again, why would the Architect bother to make a perfect human world for the very first iteration of the Matrix?
The body cannot live without the mind... We have seen cases of people fall into a come for decades and remain alive (through the use of certain machines at times) But for the most part, we cannot live very long at all as vegetables.
Certainly there is a level of appreciation towards mankind as creators but it's probably something along the lines of an agnostic.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - QuiDormit - 19-02-2010
(19-02-2010, 09:15 PM)Rxu Wrote: The body cannot live without the mind... We have seen cases of people fall into a come for decades and remain alive (through the use of certain machines at times) But for the most part, we cannot live very long at all as vegetables.
Certainly there is a level of appreciation towards mankind as creators but it's probably something along the lines of an agnostic.
Ah, touche. Based on the rules already provided by the Trilogy, there's nothing to assume that they could keep humans in a vegetative state without consuming more power than they get out of it; more power than it would be worth.
Still, the choice to use humans as power (which wouldn't be a quick and easy setup, it would take planning and trials/errors and time to execute effectively, let alone coding the Matrix itself), shows some kind of concern for Human life.
Unfortunately, there's nothing to back any of it up. The W Bro's still have kept a lid on it, and kept it tight. Good for them, because here we are, still going at it again and again. heh.
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Barloke - 19-02-2010
I always believed that the only reason the Machines kept the human race alive was some obscure root program. In a way it would be the human equivelant of a sub-concious. I mean take into account the animatrix. Time and time again Machine-kind made attempts to pacify the situation created by B1-66ER (who probably is the first one to disobey his inherit programming). Even after Machines were first exiled from mankind they attempted to make amends but were rebuked in the Untied Nations and eventually recieved embargos, despite their success on the open market. Then war starts and Machines act as one would expect, which is to fight logically without emotion taking more and more land. Now here's the part that makes me think the Machines were actualy trying to help humans.
Sure we can say the Machines were brutal in warfare but we can also ay they were pushed into it. I mean they had their number hunted, perscuted, and destroyed long before any official Declaration of War was ever made. The fact that the humans in a last ditch attempt to win the war blackened the skies was part of the reason Machines decided to use them for energy. I do believe that the Machines also saw this as the only way to save humanity from itself. If they didn't care they could have reduced every human to an unconcious state and used their energy, hell use a cow instead!
So when I compare what the Machines did and what Morpheus attempted to do, I see the machines as the lesser of two evils. Of course my character wouldn't agree as either party would be more than happy to see him dead! heheheh!
RE: Question in regards to Loyalty... - Rxu - 22-02-2010
Dogs, cats and toasters can be intelligent and ruled by, free will. But they do not feel such things as remorse, frustration, joy or gratitude, because those are extensions of basic feelings and it requires a conscious either good or bad to demonstrate and/or feel them.
The machines were not brutal in their warfare, they were efficient which is part of their programming. "Brutal" would require them to acknowledge the fact they nearly terminated the human race.
Our destiny was not planned, we were not the target of elimination due to the lack of sunlight and power, therefore machines as a whole due to their limited thought process came back to the most basic of all instincts…Kill or be killed, much like a dog or any other animal would think.
In the end we continue to give these marvels of our own creation, far too much credit.