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Reinsertion - Metalogic - 19-01-2010
So I was going through the old Live Events posts on DN1 (I guess that would make this place DN1.5 or DN2 hehe), and I came across this one.
[7.2.5] I want to go back. I have to. - Vector - 5/22/07
At the time, I thought it was still wide open, and it may still be. However, reading it again since it has happened, it does seem pretty cut and dry, there is no reinsertion.
However, this does bring up an interesting point, can the machine programs, and machines themselves lie? If we accept the fact that Agent Smith lied to Cypher, then does that mean that Agent Gray was telling the truth to Cryptos? Even Vice Versa it looks funny.
So what are y'alls thought on Reinsertion?
Alittle Off Topic, but I've actually had it explained to me that, originally, Cryptos was suppose to be rid of the machine program and he would go join EPN or Zion, leaving Veil and the Cypherites all on their own and without control. They basically would've become more extreme and fanatic. Which I thought would've been awesome. One of my pet peeve about the way Rarebit and Chadwick were doing the storyline is 1. the Villain of the Week Arc, and 2. the whole balancing act.
RE: Reinsertion - QuiDormit - 19-01-2010
I always wondered if maybe Agent Gray wasn't all that informed. Also, the question isn't "can the machines lie," but more of, "are programs given the capability to speak falsely." I don't see why not.
I think the ending scene with the Oracle and Architect is often misinterpreted. Just because the Architect finds it distasteful to lie (something he obviously finds a disgusting human trait) doesn't mean that other programs' individual purposes don't find lies necessary.
For instance, Gray is not just a Machine liaison, he doesn't just provide machinist operatives information. He is also in charge of placating the masses.
OR it was just a shitty and poorly thought out storyline that the writers didn't realize how much of a problem they were creating.
RE: Reinsertion - Gerik - 19-01-2010
(19-01-2010, 02:22 PM)Metalogic Wrote: Alittle Off Topic, but I've actually had it explained to me that, originally, Cryptos was suppose to be rid of the machine program and he would go join EPN or Zion, leaving Veil and the Cypherites all on their own and without control. They basically would've become more extreme and fanatic. Which I thought would've been awesome. One of my pet peeve about the way Rarebit and Chadwick were doing the storyline is 1. the Villain of the Week Arc, and 2. the whole balancing act.
Reminds me of when at Fan Faire, Rarebit told us about how Cryptos was supposed to leave the Cyphs and join EPN and I think Shimada would leave EPN and go with the Cypherites. Lots of "bromance" was involved with this. And how Kid would eventually use a cheat code vial and kill the General. lol
Edit: CAN SOMEONE ELSE WHO WAS THERE CONFIRM THIS FOR ME?
RE: Reinsertion - Metalogic - 19-01-2010
Honestly, I think the splinter org, the Cyph and EPN should've been more extreme, pretty much close to terrorist organization. I just thought the whole balancing act rob the storyline and arcs of any real and full potential it had.
I would like to revisit the Reinsertion issues. Because it just feels unresolved to me.
RE: Reinsertion - Neo VII - 19-01-2010
It's weird that you posted this because I was thinking about similar concept the other day. Though, I'm not going to comment on anything Rarebit added to storyline, I was thinking about how it is a bit ironic that we are creating Emu. Does that make anyone involved, a CYPH?
Heh...was just a thought that passed through my noodle. I'll never consider myself a cypherite but I think it's an interesting idea.
RE: Reinsertion - QuiDormit - 19-01-2010
(19-01-2010, 04:14 PM)Neo VII Wrote: It's weird that you posted this because I was thinking about similar concept the other day. Though, I'm not going to comment on anything Rarebit added to storyline, I was thinking about how it is a bit ironic that we are creating Emu. Does that make anyone involved, a CYPH?
Heh...was just a thought that passed through my noodle. I'll never consider myself a cypherite but I think it's an interesting idea.
Oh shit.
RE: Reinsertion - Neoteny - 19-01-2010
(19-01-2010, 02:49 PM)Gerik Wrote:(19-01-2010, 02:22 PM)Metalogic Wrote: Alittle Off Topic, but I've actually had it explained to me that, originally, Cryptos was suppose to be rid of the machine program and he would go join EPN or Zion, leaving Veil and the Cypherites all on their own and without control. They basically would've become more extreme and fanatic. Which I thought would've been awesome. One of my pet peeve about the way Rarebit and Chadwick were doing the storyline is 1. the Villain of the Week Arc, and 2. the whole balancing act.
Reminds me of when at Fan Faire, Rarebit told us about how Cryptos was supposed to leave the Cyphs and join EPN and I think Shimada would leave EPN and go with the Cypherites. Lots of "bromance" was involved with this. And how Kid would eventually use a cheat code vial and kill the General. lol
Edit: CAN SOMEONE ELSE WHO WAS THERE CONFIRM THIS FOR ME?
I wasn't there, but I remember Rarebit posting the bit about Cryptos joining EPN after the Seraph ordeal and Kiddo popping a vial and pwning the General.
Don't remember hearing about the Shimada bit.
RE: Reinsertion - Metalogic - 19-01-2010
(19-01-2010, 04:32 PM)QuiDormit Wrote:(19-01-2010, 04:14 PM)Neo VII Wrote: It's weird that you posted this because I was thinking about similar concept the other day. Though, I'm not going to comment on anything Rarebit added to storyline, I was thinking about how it is a bit ironic that we are creating Emu. Does that make anyone involved, a CYPH?
Heh...was just a thought that passed through my noodle. I'll never consider myself a cypherite but I think it's an interesting idea.
Oh shit.
Please pick up your mask on the desk to your right as you come through the door. Thank you.
*evil grin*
(19-01-2010, 04:43 PM)Neoteny Wrote:(19-01-2010, 02:49 PM)Gerik Wrote:(19-01-2010, 02:22 PM)Metalogic Wrote: Alittle Off Topic, but I've actually had it explained to me that, originally, Cryptos was suppose to be rid of the machine program and he would go join EPN or Zion, leaving Veil and the Cypherites all on their own and without control. They basically would've become more extreme and fanatic. Which I thought would've been awesome. One of my pet peeve about the way Rarebit and Chadwick were doing the storyline is 1. the Villain of the Week Arc, and 2. the whole balancing act.
Reminds me of when at Fan Faire, Rarebit told us about how Cryptos was supposed to leave the Cyphs and join EPN and I think Shimada would leave EPN and go with the Cypherites. Lots of "bromance" was involved with this. And how Kid would eventually use a cheat code vial and kill the General. lol
Edit: CAN SOMEONE ELSE WHO WAS THERE CONFIRM THIS FOR ME?
I wasn't there, but I remember Rarebit posting the bit about Cryptos joining EPN after the Seraph ordeal and Kiddo popping a vial and pwning the General.
Don't remember hearing about the Shimada bit.
Honestly, I thought it would've been cool to have Veil be the leader of the Cypherites without Cryptos. She is insane enough to do whatever it takes to achieve her objectives, even to the extent of using bombs.
BOOM BOOM!
RE: Reinsertion - Hydrazine - 19-01-2010
(19-01-2010, 02:49 PM)Gerik Wrote:(19-01-2010, 02:22 PM)Metalogic Wrote: Alittle Off Topic, but I've actually had it explained to me that, originally, Cryptos was suppose to be rid of the machine program and he would go join EPN or Zion, leaving Veil and the Cypherites all on their own and without control. They basically would've become more extreme and fanatic. Which I thought would've been awesome. One of my pet peeve about the way Rarebit and Chadwick were doing the storyline is 1. the Villain of the Week Arc, and 2. the whole balancing act.
Reminds me of when at Fan Faire, Rarebit told us about how Cryptos was supposed to leave the Cyphs and join EPN and I think Shimada would leave EPN and go with the Cypherites. Lots of "bromance" was involved with this. And how Kid would eventually use a cheat code vial and kill the General. lol
Edit: CAN SOMEONE ELSE WHO WAS THERE CONFIRM THIS FOR ME?
trying to remember, i'll have to look at the video. i know that cyph and epn were meant to be temporary and cryptos and kid would end up working together in zion and Shimada didnt really have a part in the story so thats one reason why he killed her off.
Rarebit and Paul tried to contact the brothers to see what their official stance on reinsertion was and never heard back. Rarebit opened a big discussion in lesig forums "have we ever done a reinsertion?" and it went on for many pages.
It wasnt until after he did the event with cryptos, gray, and veil, that we found in Matrix Comic, book II, there was a reinsertion done. Matrix Comics were approved by the brothers and IMO that means it was possible to do a reinsertion. That doesnt mean that Gray couldnt have lied to Cryptos. Cryptos was still an asset to the Machines even if he had woken up.
Quote:Honestly, I thought it would've been cool to have Veil be the leader of the Cypherites without Cryptos. She is insane enough to do whatever it takes to achieve her objectives, even to the extent of using bombs.
BOOM BOOM!
It was easier to come up with fun stuff to do with veil than cryptos. I can think of only a few times we used him.
RE: Reinsertion - QuiDormit - 19-01-2010
(19-01-2010, 10:09 PM)Hydrazine Wrote: It wasnt until after he did the event with cryptos, gray, and veil, that we found in Matrix Comic, book II, there was a reinsertion done. Matrix Comics were approved by the brothers and IMO that means it was possible to do a reinsertion. That doesnt mean that Gray couldnt have lied to Cryptos. Cryptos was still an asset to the Machines even if he had woken up.
That's a good point. The Machines wouldn't want someone as well-known as Cryptos to be reinserted, because of the multitude of issues that could have sprung from it. Even something as simple as an assassination by a Red would cause issues with Blues and could end up waking more people up than if they just kept Cryptos on a leash.