<![CDATA[The Matrix Online Server Emulator - General Discussion]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/ Sat, 09 May 2026 12:24:24 +0000 MyBB <![CDATA[Forum registration closed]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=3344 Sun, 28 Sep 2025 08:06:29 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=3344
Note that your Discord account needs to be email verified for more than 24 hours to be able to join the following Discord server: https://discord.gg/0lRlOG8mywPfNcgo]]>
Note that your Discord account needs to be email verified for more than 24 hours to be able to join the following Discord server: https://discord.gg/0lRlOG8mywPfNcgo]]> <![CDATA[Made some Matrix Skins for Aurora on the Xbox360]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=3311 Fri, 05 Sep 2025 08:43:12 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=3311
Video Preview:

https://www.reddit.com/r/360hacks/commen...and_added/

There is an extra one i made in the reddit comments as well,
its an animated Matrix Code version. These are only for a Jailbroken Xbox360. Enjoy!


How to Install:
Just Download, Extract, and Copy / Paste them into this Aurora Directory:

\Xbox360\System\Hdd1\Apps\Aurora\Skins

Then Change your Skin in the "View" Menu and Restart Aurora!]]>
Video Preview:

https://www.reddit.com/r/360hacks/commen...and_added/

There is an extra one i made in the reddit comments as well,
its an animated Matrix Code version. These are only for a Jailbroken Xbox360. Enjoy!


How to Install:
Just Download, Extract, and Copy / Paste them into this Aurora Directory:

\Xbox360\System\Hdd1\Apps\Aurora\Skins

Then Change your Skin in the "View" Menu and Restart Aurora!]]> <![CDATA[I can't login]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=3030 Wed, 14 Aug 2024 20:59:39 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=3030 <![CDATA[MxO alive?]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=3027 Sun, 28 Jul 2024 09:09:58 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=3027 However there is no missions, etc, only world and few NPC´s to explore, right?
If i click on Mission menu and make call with one of my contacts, it always shows it´s waiting for mission header and failed. Is there some fix or missions are empty and all i can do is walking around?
Thanks so much for info, I hope MxO will be playable with friends one day.
I am also thinking about make a donation if it´s alive.

Greets from Czechia]]> However there is no missions, etc, only world and few NPC´s to explore, right?
If i click on Mission menu and make call with one of my contacts, it always shows it´s waiting for mission header and failed. Is there some fix or missions are empty and all i can do is walking around?
Thanks so much for info, I hope MxO will be playable with friends one day.
I am also thinking about make a donation if it´s alive.

Greets from Czechia]]> <![CDATA[accont login from launcher]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2991 Tue, 20 Feb 2024 23:43:20 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2991 <![CDATA[It's Almost Been 14 Long Years Ago in 2009...]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2963 Thu, 20 Jul 2023 09:01:54 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2963
I still see that the MxO emulator is still in progress after 13 half long years of hard working but I still can see it as the Titanic is still buried in rock bottom where you see nobody that its been deserted for a while. I had many friends when I first started playing it 6 days when I first preordered the game in the middle November of 2004 which was 4 months before the beta ended and it first opened its doors on March 22nd of 2005 onto Method/Regression which was one of the top playable ambitious online servers before SOE came right in and I was still having real fun with my old friends even after the beta version ended before the initial release.

I still miss my all of my good old friends whether their living or dying. But there is still hope since its been after all these years where we are in the year 2023 still missing the game just like with the fans like me really loved Star Wars Galaxies which was my first MMO game during Pre-CU and CU still existed before New Game Enhancements came out by Julio Torres in November 15th of 2005 and I really did not like the gameplay that I felt it was not the same with Pre-CU and so many people left for good. Peace and stay safe since COVID still exist in our society we live in. Here of some screenshots that I will post to remember what I loved and remember and here is a Thumbnail of the last screenshot of a wallpaper I worked on from all those years ago to say my last goodbye on July 31st which was the last day to prepare for the ending of the saga of MxO...
[Image: 3.jpg] [Image: 4.png] [Image: 5.png]t [Image: 6.png] [Image: 7.png] [Image: 8.png] [Image: 9.jpg] [Image: 10.png] [Image: 11.jpg] [Image: 12.jpg]]]>
I still see that the MxO emulator is still in progress after 13 half long years of hard working but I still can see it as the Titanic is still buried in rock bottom where you see nobody that its been deserted for a while. I had many friends when I first started playing it 6 days when I first preordered the game in the middle November of 2004 which was 4 months before the beta ended and it first opened its doors on March 22nd of 2005 onto Method/Regression which was one of the top playable ambitious online servers before SOE came right in and I was still having real fun with my old friends even after the beta version ended before the initial release.

I still miss my all of my good old friends whether their living or dying. But there is still hope since its been after all these years where we are in the year 2023 still missing the game just like with the fans like me really loved Star Wars Galaxies which was my first MMO game during Pre-CU and CU still existed before New Game Enhancements came out by Julio Torres in November 15th of 2005 and I really did not like the gameplay that I felt it was not the same with Pre-CU and so many people left for good. Peace and stay safe since COVID still exist in our society we live in. Here of some screenshots that I will post to remember what I loved and remember and here is a Thumbnail of the last screenshot of a wallpaper I worked on from all those years ago to say my last goodbye on July 31st which was the last day to prepare for the ending of the saga of MxO...
[Image: 3.jpg] [Image: 4.png] [Image: 5.png]t [Image: 6.png] [Image: 7.png] [Image: 8.png] [Image: 9.jpg] [Image: 10.png] [Image: 11.jpg] [Image: 12.jpg]]]> <![CDATA[How do i make friends / play with people on here]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2947 Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:11:12 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2947 <![CDATA[Pluging in]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2946 Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:55:09 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2946 <![CDATA[HardlineDreams registration bugged, "Contact Us" inaccessible? (+ Source&Live down?)]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2939 Sat, 17 Dec 2022 01:34:58 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2939 and the "Contact Us" isn't working - the mailbox simply tells that the recipient address doesn't exist.

Anyone know what's going on over there?




Also regarding the remaining 2 projects, MxoSource has apparently been down for 4 years now (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/561...e/76114712), and MxoLive isn't there either - is it known what happened to them, and if they might go back online at some point?]]> and the "Contact Us" isn't working - the mailbox simply tells that the recipient address doesn't exist.

Anyone know what's going on over there?




Also regarding the remaining 2 projects, MxoSource has apparently been down for 4 years now (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/561...e/76114712), and MxoLive isn't there either - is it known what happened to them, and if they might go back online at some point?]]> <![CDATA[Simulation Theory Cinematic!!!]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2920 Fri, 07 Oct 2022 02:31:02 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2920 The story continues...
This is an interactive series so be sure to participate by voting on which direction the story will go next!

https://youtu.be/NJ0aGbql1Qg]]> The story continues...
This is an interactive series so be sure to participate by voting on which direction the story will go next!

https://youtu.be/NJ0aGbql1Qg]]> <![CDATA[OFFICIAL MATRIX NFT AVATARS]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2851 Sat, 14 May 2022 23:12:44 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2851
These lovely ladies might not still be available by the time you read this but I will do my best to keep a couple extra avatars on deck for Matrix fans who want to be a part of the project. These 3 are listed for BELOW MINT DISCOUNT PRICES!

DUAL ITEMS! Right Hand Short Black Sai/Left Hand Cell Phone:

https://niftys.com/nft/0x28e4b03bc88b59d...43286/4924



DUAL WEAPONS! Right Hand Silver Staff/Left Hand Katana w/Black Handle & Silver Blade:

https://niftys.com/nft/0x28e4b03bc88b59d...3286/22752



Need access to the Blue Leaderboards? Check out this Blue Compliance Officer:

https://niftys.com/nft/0x423e540cb46db0e...47d8/18789



***PayPal Purchase Optional DM @Neomatrixology (Twitter/IG/YouTube/Discord) 4 Details or Questions***]]>
These lovely ladies might not still be available by the time you read this but I will do my best to keep a couple extra avatars on deck for Matrix fans who want to be a part of the project. These 3 are listed for BELOW MINT DISCOUNT PRICES!

DUAL ITEMS! Right Hand Short Black Sai/Left Hand Cell Phone:

https://niftys.com/nft/0x28e4b03bc88b59d...43286/4924



DUAL WEAPONS! Right Hand Silver Staff/Left Hand Katana w/Black Handle & Silver Blade:

https://niftys.com/nft/0x28e4b03bc88b59d...3286/22752



Need access to the Blue Leaderboards? Check out this Blue Compliance Officer:

https://niftys.com/nft/0x423e540cb46db0e...47d8/18789



***PayPal Purchase Optional DM @Neomatrixology (Twitter/IG/YouTube/Discord) 4 Details or Questions***]]> <![CDATA[Club Location Coordinates]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2834 Thu, 10 Feb 2022 00:02:55 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2834
RICHLAND:
Avalon (Midian Park) &gotopos 1262 -6 -1155
Duality (Kedemoth) &gotopos 596 173 -913
Jacob's Ladder (Apollyon) &gotopos 555 1 -1702
Parallaxis (Uriah Industrial Park) &gotopos -21 -6 540
Polyvinyl (Mara) &gotopos 298 -6 21
Sanguine Room (Moriah Projects) &gotopos 1052 0 -158
Sphinx (Dannah Heights) &gotopos 226 -2 -1061

WESTVIEW:
Daemon (Sobra Shores) &gotopos -213 -6 -1243
Dante (Guinness Lake) &gotopos -796 -6 -998
Kaos (Rogers Way) &gotopos -561 -11 -622
The Lynch Pin (Lucero Point) &gotopos -245 -6 -299
Succubus (Stamos) &gotopos -686 -6 139

INTERNATIONAL:
The Jade Room (Jurong) &gotopos -107 -10 -191
Kirin (Kowloon) &gotopos 346 -12 431
Masamune Discotheque (Shinjuku) &gotopos -188 -6 359
Pandora (Akasaka) &gotopos 226 -6 77
Shogo (Furihata) &gotopos -400 -10 -312

DOWNTOWN:
Cyclo (Morell) &gotopos -1450 255 -231
Deus Lounge (Park East) &gotopos -660 160 426
Haus (Creston Heights) &gotopos -1283 179 656
Hel (Hampton Green) &gotopos -289 -4 -15
Janus (Center Park) &gotopos -810 160 -74
Jetsam (Industry Square) &gotopos -157 179 796
Messiah (Chelsea) &gotopos 81 -6 -597
Noir (Edgewater) &gotopos -1486 -6 -1018
Paradise Lost (Hampton Green) &gotopos -60 267 -228
The Vault (Lamar) &gotopos 281 215 -103
Zeitgeist (Pillsen) &gotopos -276 211 304]]>
RICHLAND:
Avalon (Midian Park) &gotopos 1262 -6 -1155
Duality (Kedemoth) &gotopos 596 173 -913
Jacob's Ladder (Apollyon) &gotopos 555 1 -1702
Parallaxis (Uriah Industrial Park) &gotopos -21 -6 540
Polyvinyl (Mara) &gotopos 298 -6 21
Sanguine Room (Moriah Projects) &gotopos 1052 0 -158
Sphinx (Dannah Heights) &gotopos 226 -2 -1061

WESTVIEW:
Daemon (Sobra Shores) &gotopos -213 -6 -1243
Dante (Guinness Lake) &gotopos -796 -6 -998
Kaos (Rogers Way) &gotopos -561 -11 -622
The Lynch Pin (Lucero Point) &gotopos -245 -6 -299
Succubus (Stamos) &gotopos -686 -6 139

INTERNATIONAL:
The Jade Room (Jurong) &gotopos -107 -10 -191
Kirin (Kowloon) &gotopos 346 -12 431
Masamune Discotheque (Shinjuku) &gotopos -188 -6 359
Pandora (Akasaka) &gotopos 226 -6 77
Shogo (Furihata) &gotopos -400 -10 -312

DOWNTOWN:
Cyclo (Morell) &gotopos -1450 255 -231
Deus Lounge (Park East) &gotopos -660 160 426
Haus (Creston Heights) &gotopos -1283 179 656
Hel (Hampton Green) &gotopos -289 -4 -15
Janus (Center Park) &gotopos -810 160 -74
Jetsam (Industry Square) &gotopos -157 179 796
Messiah (Chelsea) &gotopos 81 -6 -597
Noir (Edgewater) &gotopos -1486 -6 -1018
Paradise Lost (Hampton Green) &gotopos -60 267 -228
The Vault (Lamar) &gotopos 281 215 -103
Zeitgeist (Pillsen) &gotopos -276 211 304]]> <![CDATA[HAPPY NEW YEAR 2022, OPERATIVES!]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2823 Sat, 01 Jan 2022 04:40:16 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2823 Happy New Year, Operatives! Looking forward to a fantastic 2022. It's been great seeing so many more of you discover the MxOEMU project, and The Matrix Community Discord.

Thanks of course to Rajko, whose tireless (and largely thankless) efforts made all this possible and has brought the project as far as it has come.

Thanks to Manic Velocity, who started and put immense effort into cultivating the Discord server, which brought together MxO/Matrix communities that had been around since a good bit before Discord even existed.

And thanks to people like Vesuveus for curating such an extensive library from when the game was live, and people like Sugaree for their encyclopedic knowledge of the story. And of course Neomatrixology, for his relentless creation of his brilliant, enlightening videos. They're not to be missed. Thanks so much to Calaeus for his efforts to resurrect Radio Free Zion and hosting regular dance parties in Mega City.

20X6's amazing 'Mega City Fashions 1999' catalog to help find the clothing items you're looking for was a fantastic addition, especially with the Tabor Park Fashion Square Mall. Thank you 20X6 for the concept and the great catalog (which is pinned in #emulation in the Matrix Community Discord), and thank you Rajko for making it happen, along with everything else you've added in 2021. Here's to the future!

There are ENTERELY too many amazing people to mention by name that haven't already been mentioned above (Ebola, Gerik, QuiDormit, Sixxth, and so many more), please don't feel slighted if I didn't mention you by name. I just set out to say Happy New Year to all of you, and I wish you all a fantastic year.

(I have absolutely missed important contributors. If I have done this or cited anyone in error, PLEASE message me and I will fix it, I have the utmost respect for the dedication, time, and effort each and every person puts into this. I'd hate to cheapen it by having it misrepresented).]]> Happy New Year, Operatives! Looking forward to a fantastic 2022. It's been great seeing so many more of you discover the MxOEMU project, and The Matrix Community Discord.

Thanks of course to Rajko, whose tireless (and largely thankless) efforts made all this possible and has brought the project as far as it has come.

Thanks to Manic Velocity, who started and put immense effort into cultivating the Discord server, which brought together MxO/Matrix communities that had been around since a good bit before Discord even existed.

And thanks to people like Vesuveus for curating such an extensive library from when the game was live, and people like Sugaree for their encyclopedic knowledge of the story. And of course Neomatrixology, for his relentless creation of his brilliant, enlightening videos. They're not to be missed. Thanks so much to Calaeus for his efforts to resurrect Radio Free Zion and hosting regular dance parties in Mega City.

20X6's amazing 'Mega City Fashions 1999' catalog to help find the clothing items you're looking for was a fantastic addition, especially with the Tabor Park Fashion Square Mall. Thank you 20X6 for the concept and the great catalog (which is pinned in #emulation in the Matrix Community Discord), and thank you Rajko for making it happen, along with everything else you've added in 2021. Here's to the future!

There are ENTERELY too many amazing people to mention by name that haven't already been mentioned above (Ebola, Gerik, QuiDormit, Sixxth, and so many more), please don't feel slighted if I didn't mention you by name. I just set out to say Happy New Year to all of you, and I wish you all a fantastic year.

(I have absolutely missed important contributors. If I have done this or cited anyone in error, PLEASE message me and I will fix it, I have the utmost respect for the dedication, time, and effort each and every person puts into this. I'd hate to cheapen it by having it misrepresented).]]> <![CDATA[Baby Battery: NFT]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2821 Mon, 27 Dec 2021 04:09:08 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2821 -Luke Winkie

In 2005, Northern Virginia community college, talking to this girl, no clue what about; something I said…caused her to say these words which still echo inside me: “You’re not one of those Matrix kids are you?”

My mind lit up like the sparks ⚡️ in the fetus fields.
Completely vanishing, she and the surrounding environment became replaced by the idea: “There are Matrix kids.”

As my consciousness returned to the external environment I glided down the halls, I knew I would find these “Matrix kids.”

Years later I painted this iconic image, which is still imprinted in my minds eye.

A few years after painting it I decided to make it my first NFT.

https://opensea.io/assets/0x495f94727674...693843969/

All proceeds from its sale will go towards furthering the heroic task which MXOemu.info has done to maintain the spark of the “Matrix Kids.”

.jpeg   1990A6A6-FB81-427F-B552-4DD2BC6512F8.jpeg (Size: 498.61 KB / Downloads: 2) ]]> -Luke Winkie

In 2005, Northern Virginia community college, talking to this girl, no clue what about; something I said…caused her to say these words which still echo inside me: “You’re not one of those Matrix kids are you?”

My mind lit up like the sparks ⚡️ in the fetus fields.
Completely vanishing, she and the surrounding environment became replaced by the idea: “There are Matrix kids.”

As my consciousness returned to the external environment I glided down the halls, I knew I would find these “Matrix kids.”

Years later I painted this iconic image, which is still imprinted in my minds eye.

A few years after painting it I decided to make it my first NFT.

https://opensea.io/assets/0x495f94727674...693843969/

All proceeds from its sale will go towards furthering the heroic task which MXOemu.info has done to maintain the spark of the “Matrix Kids.”

.jpeg   1990A6A6-FB81-427F-B552-4DD2BC6512F8.jpeg (Size: 498.61 KB / Downloads: 2) ]]> <![CDATA[Old Ripper Tools and progress]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2819 Fri, 24 Dec 2021 01:04:01 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2819 <![CDATA[One More Day]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2815 Tue, 21 Dec 2021 12:00:22 +0100 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2815 <![CDATA[Radio Free Zion]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2759 Fri, 23 Jul 2021 18:51:53 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2759 [Image: e1a4f7760b5bc1046d4df47d385fac3da2fc4272.png]

RADIO FREE ZION IS BACK! (sort of)

Your favorite radio from back in the days is making a very late comeback thanks to the community effort!

RFZ is now live 24/7 with many songs inspired by or from The Matrix universe accompanied by jingles and fake ads!
You want to listen to us in-game? Use in-game commands:

Code:
/radio addfave RFZ|https://stream.radiofreezion.net:8061/listen.mp3
/macro RFZ /radio play https://stream.radiofreezion.net:8061/listen.mp3

Don't forget to join the community parties every first weekend of each month, Saturdays and Sundays at 3pm PST / 7pm ET / 23:00 UTC! Radio Free Zion: Jack in. Crank it up.

[Image: rfz-final-green_1.png][Image: DanceOut.gif]]]> [Image: e1a4f7760b5bc1046d4df47d385fac3da2fc4272.png]

RADIO FREE ZION IS BACK! (sort of)

Your favorite radio from back in the days is making a very late comeback thanks to the community effort!

RFZ is now live 24/7 with many songs inspired by or from The Matrix universe accompanied by jingles and fake ads!
You want to listen to us in-game? Use in-game commands:

Code:
/radio addfave RFZ|https://stream.radiofreezion.net:8061/listen.mp3
/macro RFZ /radio play https://stream.radiofreezion.net:8061/listen.mp3

Don't forget to join the community parties every first weekend of each month, Saturdays and Sundays at 3pm PST / 7pm ET / 23:00 UTC! Radio Free Zion: Jack in. Crank it up.

[Image: rfz-final-green_1.png][Image: DanceOut.gif]]]> <![CDATA[Monthly MxO community meet-ups]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2754 Mon, 31 May 2021 03:21:08 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2754 https://discord.gg/0lRlOG8mywPfNcgo, perhaps log in the game to chill at the club, and just generally have a great time talking about whatever, sharing stories and what not.”

The MxO community meeting / party is by default scheduled for first weekend of each month, Saturdays and Sundays at 3pm PST / 7pm ET / 23:00 UTC. Hope to see you there all! Don't forget to jack into the Radio Free Zion: In-game macros:
Code:
/radio addfave RFZ|https://stream.radiofreezion.net:8061/listen.mp3
/macro RFZ /radio play https://stream.radiofreezion.net:8061/listen.mp3

[Image: attachment.png]

.jpg   MeetupPoster.jpg (Size: 331.7 KB / Downloads: 6) ]]> https://discord.gg/0lRlOG8mywPfNcgo, perhaps log in the game to chill at the club, and just generally have a great time talking about whatever, sharing stories and what not.”

The MxO community meeting / party is by default scheduled for first weekend of each month, Saturdays and Sundays at 3pm PST / 7pm ET / 23:00 UTC. Hope to see you there all! Don't forget to jack into the Radio Free Zion: In-game macros:
Code:
/radio addfave RFZ|https://stream.radiofreezion.net:8061/listen.mp3
/macro RFZ /radio play https://stream.radiofreezion.net:8061/listen.mp3

[Image: attachment.png]

.jpg   MeetupPoster.jpg (Size: 331.7 KB / Downloads: 6) ]]> <![CDATA[Development progress]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2701 Fri, 23 Oct 2020 13:42:03 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2701 Oh and Raj.... any progress you want to share with your devoted followers ? The 2017 update blew our minds ( at least a little bit).]]> Oh and Raj.... any progress you want to share with your devoted followers ? The 2017 update blew our minds ( at least a little bit).]]> <![CDATA[Downtown White Hallways]]> //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2690 Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:48:19 +0200 //mxoemu.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=2690
Anyway, I got to the highest outside level with doors. Only one face of the structure had doors. When I moused over it, it referred to the white hallways. And when I clicked on it, I found myself at the central intersection in the white hallways!

I walked forward and turned left. Then I went to the end and turned left. Here I found a door which could be interacted with. This too referred to the white hallways. I clicked it and found myself in a downtown bookstore.

I don’t remember exactly which building it was, but it was near a diner, and there was a parking building nearby as well. I’ll poke around and see if I can get its coords.

Anyone else ever run into this?]]>
Anyway, I got to the highest outside level with doors. Only one face of the structure had doors. When I moused over it, it referred to the white hallways. And when I clicked on it, I found myself at the central intersection in the white hallways!

I walked forward and turned left. Then I went to the end and turned left. Here I found a door which could be interacted with. This too referred to the white hallways. I clicked it and found myself in a downtown bookstore.

I don’t remember exactly which building it was, but it was near a diner, and there was a parking building nearby as well. I’ll poke around and see if I can get its coords.

Anyone else ever run into this?]]>